Episode 17: First Responders & Mental Health
Hello. I'm Jessica Samuels. Welcome to A Way Forward presented by Beam Credit Union. I'd like to acknowledge this podcast takes place on the ancestral, traditional, and unceded lands of the Okanagan Selix people. Kelowna fire captain David McCarthy joins me today, and he's going to talk about the mental health toll of being a first responder from a firefighter perspective.
Jessica Samuels:But he's also going to talk about the steps the department is taking to support its members. Credit Union is proud to sponsor today's episode. With deep roots in BC and a commitment to your financial journey, Beam believes wellness, mental and financial starts with support you can count on. David, thank you so much for being here. You've been with the fire department for quite a few years.
Jessica Samuels:Why don't we start with a little bit of your background and history there?
David McCarthy:Okay. I started actually about a week after my daughter was born. I joined the Westside Fire and I was there for two years. Then I got hired on in 2002 with the Kelowna Fire Department.
Jessica Samuels:Okay. So really you started in 2000 and then 2002 with the fire department. Yes. So we're talking like twenty
David McCarthy:five twenty five years.
Jessica Samuels:You must have seen a lot. And of course, the whole point of today is to talk about mental health and first responders from a firefighter perspective. Let's go back to twenty, twenty five years ago. You know, when we talked, before we started recording, you had a line to me and you said, it's not if, it's when. And we were talking about when you will get a call that really that really hits you.
Jessica Samuels:When you got that call or those calls back then, how did you manage? How did how did you manage as a group or as a department?
David McCarthy:Well, the fire department, most fire departments are a real family. So you eat, you sleep, you drink, you do everything with this group of people. Right? And so there's a real camaraderie. And so, you know, if there was something bugging me or bugging someone else, it's as simple as sitting with somebody and having a quick chat just to make sure they're okay or get to the bottom of what's stuck.
Jessica Samuels:Right. I feel like there's, so there's two points here. I think that, that there's an element of the, of the role as a first responder that is unique to this type of position, whether it's fire or other first responders out there, that it is the nature of your job to go towards, uncertainty, potentially danger. And that's unique to these roles. I like you talk about afterwards, you know, just sitting and having a conversation with somebody.
Jessica Samuels:Were those conversations hard? Because I would imagine there would take some time to process. Or maybe you don't want to talk about it right away.
David McCarthy:I'm not a biologist, but we have done some training with some clinical counselors and people that are highly educated. And yeah, sometimes you do get stuck. And that's just the brain trying to relate what you've seen to something else in your database. If it can't find one, that's when you get the spinning wheel. The sounds come back, the smells come back, the sight comes back.
David McCarthy:You may not even realize it, but if you had a really bad MVA somewhere and then months later you drive by that intersection, there's a very good chance that that whole call will come back to you.
Jessica Samuels:Right. And in those moments, that's where you would rely on your work family to use your words before a family to say, Hey, you remember that call? Yep. I caught and have those conversations and work through it.
David McCarthy:I mean, if it's a bad enough call, I will try to initiate some of our programs that we have through the fire department. And so that it doesn't get that far. We like to, you know, the quicker you can deal with it, the quicker you can get past it or learn to live with it.
Jessica Samuels:Right. Learn to live with it. That sounds easier said than done.
David McCarthy:It is sometimes.
Jessica Samuels:Yeah.
David McCarthy:Yeah, it is.
Jessica Samuels:So let's fast forward to you. You referenced programs there. Let's fast forward to when some of these programs became official. Let's talk a little bit about, there was a specific thing that happened in our community, in the Kelowna and Okanagan community that led to developing what we call the CISM, so the Critical Incident Stress Management Team.
David McCarthy:Yeah, it was my first incidents with it was after the two thousand and three fire. Once that was all said and done, we had somebody come and talk to the group. Then It was a little larger than we like to do now. We want to keep it as small as we can just for timing and everything. But everybody was involved.
David McCarthy:That was the problem with this. So you don't really get the time to go through everything you need to go through back then, but it was just the beginning of the program here in Kelowna.
Jessica Samuels:So the two thousand and three fires happened and they recognized that this was such a huge impact, not only to the broad community but to the first responders and obviously firefighters that were taking part and the ripple out effects that they, that this program came to be. Did it exist elsewhere?
David McCarthy:It was in the beginning, We've realized for a long time the amount of suicide that's in the fire department, the ambulance, the police, the military, anybody that deals with sudden and chaotic trauma you know, that you can't really prepare for. And, you know, we'll get some information when we get dispatched, but you never know what you're walking into until you get to the scene.
Jessica Samuels:And that would would that be pretty regular in that, not through any nefarious or anybody's done a bad job. But to go back to the point of of you folks walking into a scene that could be, like you said, sudden, could be changing by the moment. You may have an expectation of what you're walking into, but then what you get there, it could be different.
David McCarthy:Totally different. Yeah. And that just depends on who made the initial 911 call, what their level knowledge of the incident, anything like that. Because our dispatchers can only go by what they're told. And if it goes to BCAS first.
Jessica Samuels:BCAS, oh ambulance service.
David McCarthy:Sorry, yeah. Their dispatch is I think mostly in Kamloops. And then they send the call to the fire department here if it's a medical in nature or an MVA. So we rely on the people on scene giving an accurate description and then an accurate description from their dispatch to ours.
Jessica Samuels:And from a perspective, you mentioned the BC ambulance service. I mean what percentage of the time are you, to be literal, the first responder to the scene?
David McCarthy:It depends on where we are, where in the city you are. Station 4 out in the mission, quite often they're alone for could be 15 or 20 because the ambulance stations are downtown and in Rutland. So if it's a busy night and there's already a couple calls going on, it could be twenty minutes before they get out to the South Crest or Kettle Valley areas. Downtown Core, we have the ambulance service there. So it's about fiftyfifty when we show up first or when we show up and they're already on scene.
Jessica Samuels:Right, and do you stay on scene until the situation has, I don't know the right language here has been resolved or neutralized? Mitigated. Mitigated. I love that word.
David McCarthy:Yeah, we with respond with respect to a first response call, we stay there until they release us.
Jessica Samuels:Okay.
David McCarthy:So until they're comfortable enough that they have the situation under control, they'll keep us there.
Jessica Samuels:Right. So to go back now, when we're talking about the CISM team and the 2,003 wildfires, because I think we just, identified something. You're with the fire department.
David McCarthy:Yes.
Jessica Samuels:So fire is in the name, and, but you're also first responders. And we just went over that in terms of, you know, fiftyfifty or depending on where you are in the community. You could be the first responders for things that are other than fire. Yes. Obviously, if it's fire, you're on the scene until it's completely mitigated.
David McCarthy:Yes.
Jessica Samuels:Okay.
David McCarthy:Yeah.
Jessica Samuels:And so then now, it's interesting to me then that the CISM team was developed after a fire. Because not to say that it's any less, triggering or, traumatic. But all this time, that was really significant at the time, once in a hundred year event in Kelowna. But meantime, all these other times, day in, day out, you and the members are responding to some pretty significant things.
David McCarthy:Yes. And not only medicals and fires, we go to motor vehicle accidents. We have a technical rescue team that goes to high angle rescues, low angle rescues. We do ice rescue. We have the marine rescue on the lake that we respond to boating accidents and things of that nature.
David McCarthy:So yeah, we do pretty much everything in town hazmat.
Jessica Samuels:So twenty three or twenty two years later after this support management kind of program has been implemented. What exactly happens in terms of the way that it's supporting members in the myriad of situations that you just outlined there? Well, have it actually in its development has grown quite a
David McCarthy:bit over the last twenty years. We started with just our program called debriefing, which means that usually between twenty four and forty eight hours after a bad event, we'll do a debriefing where we walk the members that were in attendance through kind of an overview of the call and then what they did at that call because it changes for everybody. What they did and what they saw can be completely different from the two guys or two people in the back of the truck. So we go through that and then we dip into how it made them feel and anything that they're having trouble with. So we deal with that kind of a situation for everybody that was on scene.
David McCarthy:That's what we focused on originally as a team. And I was not part of it. I only came to the team about six or seven years ago. So I'm not going to take credit for creating this incredible community that we have. A lot of the groundwork was laid before I was on scene.
David McCarthy:So that's where it started. Then we recognized a need for something called a diffusing. So if a truck goes to a bad call, two or three members of the team will show up at the hall and we'll talk to them about what they did and what they saw. Then we'll gauge whether the crew as a whole is able to go on or if they need replacing.
Jessica Samuels:Right. Okay. Permanent replacing?
David McCarthy:No, just for the day.
Jessica Samuels:Oh, okay. Yeah. So that's something that has happened where they've needed replacing. So what does that look like?
David McCarthy:Usually I'll get a call from somebody about it and then we'll organize the diffusing and then I'll talk to my boss, the platoon captain, and let them know that this engine has been browned out for a couple hours until we can do our assessment.
Jessica Samuels:Okay.
David McCarthy:And to let them Or I'll let them know that there's a possibility that we'll need a new truck of people.
Jessica Samuels:Right. And is that You've you talk a lot about community and family amongst the members. So you need a new truck of people. Is that you're just bringing in the on call folks? How that message?
David McCarthy:We'll put out a call and they'll respond whether they can do it or not. And then we'll send them to the hall. And then once they're there, we'll deal with the other people whether, And again, it's a bit of a slippery slope. We don't want to send people that are struggling to a house that's empty. Lots of people have wives and kids at home or husbands and kids, they're able to manage there in their safe space.
David McCarthy:We have a lot of new young, mostly men, and some of them live alone. We have to be cognizant of the fact that it may not be the best idea to send them home alone.
Jessica Samuels:What would you do in those situations?
David McCarthy:Probably send them to the main hall. Get them to sweep the truck Bay Floor. Let them work out. Let them hang out with the guys that are on duty and just have people there that are aware of what's going on and able to help.
Jessica Samuels:Okay. What if you realize that the member needs some longer term support? What kind of mechanisms are in place for that?
David McCarthy:We've actually recently started working with a member of the CMHA and she's developing resources that we can access on a website. The BCPFFA, the Professional Firefighters Association in the province has gone through and spent a lot of time and effort to vet local clinicians in a lot of the bigger centers. Because it's not for everybody. Some clinicians don't wanna, or aren't able to deal with our culture.
Jessica Samuels:With your culture?
David McCarthy:The fire department culture. Okay. The whole thing, yeah.
Jessica Samuels:And what do you mean by that? Like the work, the personality that may come with it? Like what?
David McCarthy:All of
Jessica Samuels:it. Okay. Yeah. Because it might be challenged. I mean, I've not going to generalize here, but I've met a couple firefighters or folks who work with the ambulance service.
Jessica Samuels:Stoic is the word I think I used with you previously. Yes. And it's like, it's like you hear like you don't want to burden others with your troubles.
David McCarthy:That's a lot of it. Yeah. I we have like, I have two very good friends that I've had my entire life and I share lots with them. That's one of my outlets. I don't like to burden my wife with the gory details.
David McCarthy:Lots of the cultures around that. You can give a little, but you can't give it all. Some counselors, like I said, we did a meeting with a group of them. There were three of us of differing seniorities in the fire department. I think there was about 20.
David McCarthy:And we talked to them, we answered all their questions, we did all that. I think at the end of it, 10 or 12 of them walked out and said, no thanks. Really? Yeah, don't want to deal with that. Which is fair enough as long as they know their limitations because it's like secondary trauma.
David McCarthy:Once we start unloading, can be quite a bit.
Jessica Samuels:Well, and I can definitely understand that. And I mean, you have more than twenty five or twenty five years full experience. Feel like there would be a pile on effect. There might be one. So if you're talking about, so the idea is that you would, you have more than one incident, I would imagine, I don't speak for you.
Jessica Samuels:That would be kind of you're managing or in the back of your mind. Yes. And so what are you saying? You talk about one and it might lead to another, might lead to another.
David McCarthy:Yeah. And just the depths of where like you use the word stoic or we use the word stoic. And again, back to talking to some people that are more well trained. Part of the issue with first responders is we have to be able to shut off our emotions. You cannot do your job without doing that.
David McCarthy:The problem is that the brain completely shuts down the emotional aspect of an event until you're done your job. And then the battle is getting back to normal, getting back to balanced. That's where the issues arise with mental health. It's not what we do per se, it's trying to get the mind and the body balanced after the event.
Jessica Samuels:Right. Yeah. And balance, After the event, mentioned going back to family, taking part in, can you pick up some milk on the way home? We've got to celebrate so and so's birthday. Yeah.
Jessica Samuels:You take out the garbage.
David McCarthy:Lawn needs mowing.
Jessica Samuels:Yeah. How do you find that balance?
David McCarthy:It's I mean, like, one of the things we preach after we do a diffusing or a debriefing is try to get back to your normal as quick as you can with respect to do you work out every day? Do you like to hike in the woods? Do you like to go paddle boarding? Do you like to whatever your normal routine is in a day, to get back to that as soon as possible. There's going be some downtime where you're trying to get your mind balanced before you do anything else.
David McCarthy:But as quickly as you can get back to your normal routine, the better you are.
Jessica Samuels:Right. We've spent some time talking about after, a traumatic event. With this CISM, is there any stuff that is done for trainees or when people are first coming on or even before they've gone to that to kind of better prepare them?
David McCarthy:Yeah, we try to hit the team will send two or three members to the recruit classes before they graduate. We'll try to go through what we can in the resilient minds. So that's kind of giving them the awareness of what's going to happen or the types of things that can happen and then what they can look for in themselves to see if they're struggling. And so we try to, pardon me, we try to give them all that at least a buffer at the beginning. And then the older, older, the more senior people keep an eye on the new recruits pretty good.
David McCarthy:When we find out one of them has been involved in a bad event, then we were pretty relentless checking up, probably till they get frustrated.
Jessica Samuels:But that's a good thing. I mean, when we talk about mental health in general, we talk about having a support network and someone saying, Hey, that was a tough situation, or that was a horrible situation. Are you okay? Or hey, you don't seem to be yourself after X, Y, and Z. Can we talk?
David McCarthy:Exactly. And that's part of the progression of the team is now we're focusing a lot of our time and effort and making sure everybody on the team is versed in something called peer support. That's pretty much exactly what it is. And even if we as team members don't see that change, that shift, somebody else will. And they'll get a hold of somebody on the team.
David McCarthy:Usually it comes to me and then I try to figure out who's the best match because we have varying seniorities, varying shifts, and you know the people that hang out normally and the stuff they do, camping, hunting, fishing. There's all a bunch of subgroups and it can usually get pretty close with somebody to provide some help.
Jessica Samuels:How big is the CISM team?
David McCarthy:Oh, we just got some new people in. And again, it's always evolving because people get into different areas of their life. When you have small children and your partner, say, is at home and then you have a little more freedom to do some stuff. Then the kids get to a point where they take a lot more of your effort. We've had two or three step downs saying, I don't have time right now.
David McCarthy:I've got too much going on. We always try to bring enough people on that we're able to function across all different shifts. So I think I have 24 on the team now.
Jessica Samuels:Wow. On the Kelowna team?
David McCarthy:Yeah. Wow.
Jessica Samuels:That sounds like a great number. I'm sure you could always use more, but is that enough?
David McCarthy:It is for now. But what we're doing is we're developing a program where we can educate the rest of the crews on peer support. So that my goal is to have everybody to have at least a working knowledge or an awareness of the program of what it's for and how they can help out.
Jessica Samuels:Right, right. And so then other fire departments in our area, do they have, well I shouldn't actually narrow it down. Let me ask this. You know, we're talking about mental health of first responders. What are, what's the nature of these types of teams amongst the first responder sector?
Jessica Samuels:Like, do they have kind of either this specific team or things like it?
David McCarthy:The other disciplines? Yeah. I don't believe they do.
Jessica Samuels:Really?
David McCarthy:Not like ours.
Jessica Samuels:So what do mean like formalized?
David McCarthy:Yeah. Yeah. I don't. But I can't say for certain, but I've never heard of them having something like we have. Having said that, I can tell you that most of the major centers and even some groups of paid on calls, will have a CISM team for the department.
Jessica Samuels:For the fire department? Yeah. Right. Okay. And across other municipalities as well.
Jessica Samuels:West Kelowna?
David McCarthy:West Kelowna has one for sure. Everybody down on the coast has one. Kamloops has one.
Jessica Samuels:Okay. So like, it, do you think it's a provincial? Like, I guess I wanna know what the origins of this are. Is this a provincial initiative? Is this a national initiative?
David McCarthy:I would say it was probably both, but we were driven by the provincial.
Jessica Samuels:Okay.
David McCarthy:Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And they're a huge support, huge support, huge resource. It's really, again, because we're all in the same union and we're all one big happy family.
David McCarthy:So we share and we help out. Very often, but once in a while when something nasty happens, if it affects enough of their department, we'll send people from our team to help them.
Jessica Samuels:That family aspect you were talking
David McCarthy:about We spend a lot of time with the guys from people from West Kelowna, golf, hockey, camping. There's lots of inter department stuff that goes on. So we're pretty close with West Kelowna Fire Department.
Jessica Samuels:How do you think the integration of the CISM team has changed, the, the way that, traumatic or nasty incidences like you talked about it and how, the mental health toll, the impact of the mental health toll on the members. How do you think that has managed that over the decades?
David McCarthy:Well, again, we're always evolving and trying to make ourselves better. But from when I started, it's a complete 01/1980 from where we were to where we are now. And trying to continue to downplay the stigma is always our biggest challenge, but it's getting better because we're gonna start educating the officers going through their officer courses. So it becomes just a normal part of their day and they won't think about it. Some of us older guys, again, when we came on, there was nothing.
David McCarthy:So that's kind of what we knew. But now everybody that's becoming an officer will have the education at least enough to recognize when I need a call or someone from the team needs a call or something like that so that this call doesn't just go by the wayside. Gone are the days of the captain turning around and asking the guys in the back seat if they're okay and they say yes and then that's done because it takes twenty four hours for your brain to process what's going on. So that's not an accurate representation of their mental health.
Jessica Samuels:Right. So they may turn around and say you're okay. Or is everyone okay in that moment, but they'll ask and and again.
David McCarthy:Well, I'm hoping but before, when I was younger, when I was just starting out, that was the end of the conversation. Are you good? Yeah, we're good. Okay, good enough. And then let's just forget about it.
David McCarthy:But now we know. And again, it's provincial, it's national, mental health shouldn't be a secret anymore. Know, society's changed. It's so much harder nowadays than it was when I was younger too. And it's just a fact of life for most people.
Jessica Samuels:Right. Yeah. How do you know the program's working? Like how do you, you know, as you assess where next to go with elements of the program? You do surveys?
Jessica Samuels:Do you talk to the members? Like how is that measured?
David McCarthy:Well, there's always word-of-mouth that gets around, but I would measure it by days lost to mental illness injuries. Okay.
Jessica Samuels:Yeah. And that number has changed then?
David McCarthy:It's getting lower.
Jessica Samuels:Yeah. I mean, guess the challenge with that as well, though, is you'd have to be careful because you spoke before about stigma. So if you're measuring it by days lost, you would hope that it's just not that they're not talking about it. True. Yeah.
Jessica Samuels:Yeah.
David McCarthy:Yeah. But I'm aware of the people that are, you know, and some people just need to take a knee, depending on what's going on in their world, aging parents, divorce, whatever the case may be. Sometimes people just need to take a knee for a bit. And that's okay because when you're dealing with the events we deal with, you pretty much have to be present. And if your mind's somewhere else because of something going on in your life, then you're not doing yourself or anyone else on the truck a favor.
David McCarthy:And I think that's pretty clear to them, which is good. I mean, even if the days lost due to mental health injuries doesn't change, but people are coming forward rather than suffering with it, that's a victory.
Jessica Samuels:Totally agree. Do you have any advice for friends or loved ones or family members of first responder? You mentioned earlier about trying to get back to your normal as soon as possible, or even if you're someone whose truck has been browned you're going home to family. In your time and how you work with your family, some tips?
David McCarthy:Just about how to get back to normal?
Jessica Samuels:How to support you or a loved one who is a first responder?
David McCarthy:Yeah, well, funny you mentioned that we're actually getting an event organized for the November 1 for our significant others so that they get an introduction to the fire department culture. Again, some of the new recruits have past training or have been part of other departments. Others haven't. So we're going to invite their families, their significant others to an event where we talk about the types of stressors they're going to go through, the possible side effects of that. Then we're going to go through, like I did briefly here, the resources we have available as a team.
David McCarthy:And then we're going to have the Canadian Mental Health Association go through that computer program that she's developed and how easy it is for them to seek help. Sometimes they suffer too. You can see a change in your spouse or in your partner or whatever it does affect you and kids don't really understand. So we're going through a whole bunch of resources that are available, not only for adults, but for children as well. Because the more stable the home is, the better it is for us.
Jessica Samuels:Right. And twenty five years on the job. How are you doing? I would imagine that while you're still on the job, it's still a work in progress.
David McCarthy:Yeah, it is. Yeah, always. And again, there's some places where I drive by where I get taken back to calls that were particularly unsettling. But through talking to them, like I said, the biggest thing is for first responders of any discipline to find a counselor to talk to. And the earlier the better.
David McCarthy:I tell that to all the recruits. Go find one now because it might take you two years and you may not need it now, but you need to develop the relationship. Because sooner or later you will.
Jessica Samuels:David, thank you so much for the chat, and thank you so much for your work that you do in the community and making sure that we are all safe.
David McCarthy:Thank you very much for having me.
Jessica Samuels:We will provide some additional resources based conversation. You can find those on the A Way Forward podcast page at cmhacolona.org. And if you have any questions about this topic, an interview, or any other one, can always email me directly at awayforwardcmhacolona dot org. In the meantime, please do take good care. This episode is supported by Beam Credit Union.
Jessica Samuels:With deep roots in BC and a commitment to your financial journey, Beam proudly backs mental health conversations that help build stronger, healthier communities.
