Episode 9: Exploring Counselling
Hello. I'm Jessica Samuels. Welcome to A Way Forward presented by Beam Credit Union. I'd like to acknowledge that this podcast takes place on the ancestral, traditional, and unceded lands of the Okanagan Sillux people. Today's topic is counseling and cohost CMHA Kelowna CEO Mike Golick and I are going to talk about when you may want to get counseling, things to look for in a counselor, and we're also gonna provide some counseling resources for you that we hope are helpful.
Jessica Samuels:Mike, we've talked about this before on the podcast. I see a counselor. You see a counselor. Let's start off with how you knew it was time to go and seek help in this way.
Mike Gawliuk:Yeah. I'm trying to reflect back on the first time I would have, seen a counselor. I think, what what triggered it for me was a relationship, breakup. And, I'd also gone in to see my family doctor, because I was experiencing some depression and talking about the situation. And between the encouragement of my physician as well as, friends that knew me, and had, done counseling themselves, strongly encouraged me, I'll say Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk:To, access counseling. And, that's that's what really got me started, in in, you know, accessing counseling. And then throughout my life at various times, there's been different circumstances that come come up where, I'll go back and and and see my counselor, and there can be various reasons for that. Mhmm. Yeah.
Jessica Samuels:Right. And my experience was very was similar as well, you know, in my early twenties going through I I don't I don't remember it was any one significant thing, but could have been a breakup, you know, the 20 year old angst, what am I doing with my life type of thing. And but was but was experiencing a hard time. Like, I really was not managing this well and then went and saw a counselor. And again, was strongly encouraged, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, by by folks in my life.
Jessica Samuels:And it was a wonderful experience. I I I realize now that I'm I'm very lucky that my first experience with a counselor was good. Like like, my first one out of the gate, I didn't even have to to search around, and we're gonna talk a little bit more about that was good. And it was so helpful. And, you know, all these years later, I reflect back on, the the learnings and what I took away and what was said and just that experience.
Jessica Samuels:And also the idea knowing that that, how good it feels to feel heard and to have somebody understand what you're going through and and give you some kind of solution. So, I mean, it's it's it's an incredible thing to to, experience if you're experiencing it well, in your life. And and so kinda what we wanna talk about today is is what we mentioned, when is a time, the different types of counseling, and then, of course, how to prepare and get ready for your for for your first session or your first time Yeah. Going into counseling. So how if someone's gonna be accessing counseling for the first time, how do they know and this is gonna be this is gonna be an interesting I'm hesitating because we this has let us down a bit of a thing.
Jessica Samuels:This was a hard one to research, so I'm a little fumbly because how do we know, first of all, it's time to go and see a counselor?
Mike Gawliuk:Well, I mean, obviously, in our cases, there was encouragement from others.
Jessica Samuels:Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk:But I think, it can be multiple things, like if there's life events that are taking place. Right? It could be a breakup. It could be a loss, like a a death, grieving. There could be stress related to to work or or your family environment, and just just not feeling yourself.
Mike Gawliuk:Like like, those are all reasons to go and and talk to somebody.
Jessica Samuels:Right. People think they need to be in crisis, but you don't
Mike Gawliuk:No. I think I I and in fact, that's a huge misnomer is that, waiting for things to get to a crisis point to see a counselor. We talked about prevention before and and ultimately, getting to a counselor when you're not, you know, at your best, but things haven't totally gotten, off the rails, can be hugely important. Seeing a counselor can give you tools to manage in the face of some of the struggles that you're having and prevent it from becoming, worse. I I think, you know, some when we when we opened foundries, some of the reasons were why didn't youth access counseling.
Mike Gawliuk:One of the things was they didn't think it was bad enough. And the reality is if you're having a challenge, it's not about good or bad, like, talking to someone about what's going on. Again, a third party who's not necessarily invested like a family member or a friend would be, is is super important. Going to counseling can give you some perspective on the world that you may not have had prior to, which is another, positive outcome, of counseling. And then, you know, you were fortunate in that your first experience, was a positive experience with the counselor.
Mike Gawliuk:That's not always the case. Sometimes it takes a little bit of time to build a relationship with a counselor. That that can take more than one session. It can take a few. Right?
Mike Gawliuk:Mhmm. Ultimately, so, starting and getting and building that relationship and getting to a place of comfort or, ultimately, if it doesn't work out in changing things up, is something to look at as well.
Jessica Samuels:Okay. Yeah. And within that is also the the type of counseling and the type of counselor. So we're gonna do we're gonna do the counselor first, and this is where Mike and I are preparing. Okay.
Jessica Samuels:So first of all, let let let's just make this cut and dry. Can you tell me the difference between a counselor, a psychologist, and a psychiatrist?
Mike Gawliuk:I do my best.
Jessica Samuels:Okay. Thank you.
Mike Gawliuk:So a a psychiatrist is a medical doctor. They're trained as a physician, and then they have, specialist training beyond that, obviously, in mental health and mental illness. You know, they learn how to diagnose and, treat mental disorders. They're able to prescribe medication. Some will ultimately do psychotherapy as well.
Mike Gawliuk:And the other piece with the psychiatrist, because they have that medical background, they also understand, the physical connection, so how that could be, impacted by, mental illness or a mental, health disorder. Then there's a psychologist. And so a psychologist, and in British Columbia is someone who has, like, a PhD in psychology. So that's usually, four years after an undergrad degree, and they're trained in diagnosis and treatment of mental health disorders. And the difference between them and a psychiatrist is that, they don't have the ability to prescribe medication, but are fully trained in a a number of different, like, treatment modalities and, and assessments and, and have that postgraduate training.
Mike Gawliuk:And then Yes. There are, counselors. And, you know, in doing research for this, this podcast, there's about five different registered counsellors in British Columbia. They all possess a master's degree. So there's a registered clinical counselor.
Mike Gawliuk:There's masters of social work. There's a clinical master's in social work. There's registered therapeutic counselors, and then there's Canadian certified counselors. So wholly is that ever a lot and confusing. Yeah.
Mike Gawliuk:The reality is they all have a little bit of different training, but they're trained. They're they're master's level, clinically trained, professionals who go through a practicum and may learn different, techniques along the way, but are absolutely 100 percent able to provide counseling, provide, different levels of treatment to people who are experiencing mental health related concerns.
Jessica Samuels:How is a person supposed to know who they're supposed to go to?
Mike Gawliuk:Well, that's a
Jessica Samuels:I mean, I'm just I'm sitting here amazed that that, you you know, you're someone who's been in this line of work for decades, you know, and and and here I am, and we're we're working together, and we have worked together. And we're saying, gosh, this is a lot. Imagine if you're someone who's struggling and you're like, where do I go? It's almost it's almost like there's you have all these options and which way do you turn.
Mike Gawliuk:Yeah. So I I mean, realistically, listing off the different kinds of counselors is simply to give some perspective. Right? I I think, certainly, if there's serious concerns related to mental, to mental health or mental illness, and and that would be areas where you've got, like, really serious concerns about depression, maybe psychosis, those elements, you would start obviously with your family doctor because a family doctor ultimately then makes that referral to a psychiatrist. A family doctor may also make a referral to a psychologist, but you may be may be able to access that in in private practice as well.
Mike Gawliuk:I think in terms of, looking at the different training and who's who, that's a matter of doing a little bit of research, getting a sense of who's who's out there in the community. And that could be through people that you know that have had successful experiences. It can be it could be starting with your physician. It can be different ways to to really find out, ultimately what's available. It can be to go into a place like Foundry if you're a young person, and, they may start there and, see a counselor and and, do an assessment who, then would refer them on potentially onto, another person if there's needs that are identified.
Mike Gawliuk:Right? So if someone shows up and they have specific needs and it's identified, say, again, psychiatry, which tends to be the holy grail, but it's not something that everybody needs Right. An assessment can happen there and a referral can be made as, as as a result of that.
Jessica Samuels:Right. Okay. Thank thank you. And and and this is kind of why we were taking deep breaths at the beginning here because this is an immense topic.
Mike Gawliuk:Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels:And and we have to acknowledge that we are just covering up a part of it because in order to cover well, we couldn't cover all of it, and it would be a tremendously long podcast if we did all of it. So we kind of had to pick and choose what we were gonna talk about when we're talking about this broad topic of counseling. Where I'd like to go now is the different type of counseling, and I I would like to focus in the area, of of of the counselor perspective. And and please correct me if I'm wrong because as we were as I was doing this research, I would say, the type of counseling that feels like it's most accessible, most present, most prescribed, most referred to is through, you know, a a clinical or a rest registered clinical or master of social work counseling, and it's a form of counseling called CBT. Now just before I move on, would you agree with that statement?
Jessica Samuels:I'm not saying one's better or the other. I'm just saying that oftentimes, for folks who are addressing, some challenges that they're having in their life in the absence of psychosis and mental illness, it's CBT with counselors.
Mike Gawliuk:So what I would say is that CBT is a fairly common approach.
Jessica Samuels:Okay.
Mike Gawliuk:It's got a lot of evidence behind it in terms of how effective it is for certain disorders. So CBT is, something that has shown success for people who are struggling with anxiety. It's shown success for with with people who are struggling with depression. There are studies who that have compared it to, having the same impact as being on medication. It's it's a therapy that takes a look at your your thoughts, your feelings, and your behaviors and really gets at looking at your thought patterns and how sometimes your distorted thoughts ultimately affect how you feel and then make you act in a certain way.
Mike Gawliuk:So it's really about shaping your thought patterns, changing your thought patterns up when, say, for example, you've got, some cognitive distortions, looking at seeing things or getting an opportunity to consider, different alternatives for reality. And and it's it's goal oriented. CBT is also short term. It offers six to 20 sessions, but it's very active. Like, there's a lot of homework that comes with CBT.
Mike Gawliuk:You're active with your therapist, again, being very goal focused. And so there's a lot of work that takes place when you do cognitive behavioral therapy. You'll you're always gonna go home with homework, and it's not necessarily, a passive where you're, you're sitting across, from someone and and they're listening to what's going on. It has a purpose. That purpose is to really work with those thought processes, which shape how, we behave.
Mike Gawliuk:And ultimately, again, where it's been shown to be effective is is with with anxiety Mhmm. And depression.
Jessica Samuels:Right. And I think it's important folks understand that and and thank you for that. And so, you know, you you what you said there, very thorough response, you know, it's it's a a short definition and I you know, I will have to read it because I wanna make sure that I that I get it all. It's a practical all these things you said. CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, is a practical short term for form of psychotherapy.
Jessica Samuels:It helps people to develop skills and strategies for becoming and staying healthy. It focuses on the here and now, and I think this is this is a a key thing. It focuses on the here and now, on the problems that come up in the day to day life, and that oftentimes will refer back to that homework and that active piece that you were talking about. CBT helps people to examine how they make sense of what is happening around them and how these perceptions affect the way they feel. Again, thoughts, feelings, physical sensations like you said.
Jessica Samuels:So, yeah, it's structured, time limited, usually 60 to 20 sessions, goals, homework, all of these things, are specific to CBT, and it is widely used and is widely helpful.
Mike Gawliuk:Yeah. I mean, it certainly is it it's widely used. There are certainly some people, and and I know people that have done CBT, who have, had really positive experiences and and it's had a significant impact on them. So it it definitely has value, in terms of, one form of treatment that's out there. Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk:As with anything else, it's, it's not without its critics. Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels:I I was gonna say I feel like there's a but there. Like, there's a a but.
Mike Gawliuk:Well, I I think I think part of the the critiques around it is that, again, you talk about the here and now and the thoughts that are in the here and now. Where it may be limited is what maybe caused those thoughts to begin with. So it doesn't necessarily allow you to go back and take a look at maybe there was a circumstance that happened to you when you were younger. Maybe there was a trauma experience, and and and it's not necessarily going to get to that. So, so it's not going to be as effective nor should it be utilized experiences.
Mike Gawliuk:Right? When we look at trauma, which certainly in this day and age, we, we hear a lot about, when we look at the the roots of substance misuse and, and addiction. Certainly, one of the things that is commonplace behind that is, the experience of trauma. Mhmm. And there's other therapies, that are in place that are designed to, more effectively address, traumas.
Jessica Samuels:Right.
Mike Gawliuk:I mean, there's there's, what's called EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.
Jessica Samuels:Right.
Mike Gawliuk:There's somatic experiencing. And and and those approaches tend to, identify that when you have experienced trauma, it's it's not just a cognitive experience, like, trauma is felt in the body and it experienced in the body. And so for people that have been traumatized, those, those modalities have shown to make a difference for people. Now what I would say and how this relates back to what we started the conversation with is that there's lots of different, counseling designations out there. And I put up just, when it comes to trauma, treating trauma, those approaches are very specialized, and they take a lot of very specific and very focused training.
Mike Gawliuk:And so I would say if someone is looking at or looking for, to address specific issues in those areas, you're gonna wanna ask some questions, of the person that you're talking talking to. Like, what has their experience has been? What does their training look like? You know? Have they worked in this setting before?
Mike Gawliuk:For how many years? All those kinds of things. Because the other side of the coin, is that there are those that are out there that maybe don't have the same level of training, or the same level of qualification, and, unfortunately, can can do more harm than good. So it's important to really do your homework in terms of, any any council that you're going to see, especially when we look at issues, like, trauma focused work.
Jessica Samuels:Right. And I think as we as we and and thank you for that. I mean, again, feel like we're touching on so much here, but it's really important for folks to understand or or start to understand what they have to get into if they are thinking they need to see seek out some help, some counseling, and the type of counseling, and which of the therapies fall into which categories and understanding what you want. So as an example, you you you could have some you could be an individual who you know you have had a traumatic experience, but maybe you don't want to go that deep yet or at all. So it's it's not like you know that that because you've had a traumatic experience, you have to go and get that type of therapy.
Jessica Samuels:And I think that's probably one of the main things I really want to get across to people. You you have control.
Mike Gawliuk:Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels:You can decide whether the therapy is working for you, the type of therapy. I mean, you can't really decide the type of therapy. You can't walk into a psychiatrist. But as you become more informed and you have the pathways open to you, you don't have to do, EMDR unless that's where you choose to go right now. If you want to just start off with something, it's your first time, maybe CBT or CFBT is the way to go.
Jessica Samuels:And, you know, I think it's important for folks to know that that they have control over the help that they seek out.
Mike Gawliuk:Absolutely. 100%. You know, you you choose a the counselor you're gonna work with. Mhmm. And and and I think this is then gets down to sort of what does it look like when you when you seek counseling for the first time.
Mike Gawliuk:Right? And what does what does the first appointment, usually entail?
Jessica Samuels:Right.
Mike Gawliuk:I I mean, realistically, what I would say in terms of preparing for a counseling appointment is sort of to get clear around the reason that you're going to talk to somebody. I mean, as clear as you can get under the circumstances, so that you can, share specifically, what's been going on. Whoever you initially talk to is, is going to be doing an assessment. They're going to be asking basic questions around, you know, the basics around who you are, age, those kinds of things. But, we'll ask different questions around circumstances and do an assessment.
Mike Gawliuk:And and through that assessment, we'll, start to identify, you know, what's going to be suggested as part of a treatment plan, what, approach may be most helpful. So it's it's really important to, again, not only go in with an idea of what you're there for, but to to follow through with the assessment to the best of your ability. What I would say is because it's your choice, if you go into a setting and you don't feel comfortable, it doesn't feel right for whatever reason, you have the right to stop the session and say, I don't feel comfortable. I I don't wanna continue. And I I wanna reinforce that people absolutely have the right to do that, 100%.
Jessica Samuels:Mhmm. And also, not go back. I mean, I've I've had friends or people in my life saying, okay. Well, you know, I I think I'm I'm good. And not because the experience was negative, but they're like, okay.
Jessica Samuels:I've I've got this homework. I've got this work. I I have another appointment, but I I just need to take a couple beats. And it's like, yeah. You can say.
Jessica Samuels:You can say exactly that. I have some stuff to work on, or I'm okay right now. You know? Can I come back? So that that idea that you have control over your your your treatment plan is important.
Jessica Samuels:Going back to also in that first appointment, you know, expect that it's gonna be probably forty five to sixty minutes.
Mike Gawliuk:Somewhere in that vicinity.
Jessica Samuels:Yeah. And I always find it's a good idea to, you talked about preparing, being prepared ahead of time with with what you want to talk about, but I also think setting some time for yourself before you go, is helpful to me, and then allowing yourself some grace afterwards.
Mike Gawliuk:For sure.
Jessica Samuels:Yeah.
Mike Gawliuk:Right? It it can be an emotional, environment, and it it can be an emotional experience. So, yeah, absolutely taking time before and after is, is is very important.
Jessica Samuels:Right. And the other thing too just before we move on to the next point, going back to what you're saying is that, really, you know, you can seek out help from friends or medical professionals in terms of maybe where they might point you in a direction, but really do research. You know, what I've noticed with counselors, they'll they'll you'll see words, and this is why we were talking about them on their website, CBT, SFBT, EMDR. Mhmm. And and and they should describe it.
Jessica Samuels:They should tell you on the website what they specialize in and their areas of focus. You should see their credentials. So, all of this is built out to help you to make those decisions and and and take the time to research it. We're we're googling everything else in the world. You're about to share some or be pretty vulnerable with an individual.
Jessica Samuels:So
Mike Gawliuk:For sure. And again, I can I go I can go to my experience, because I have done a couple EMDR sessions? And and what I experienced in both cases, it was it was two separate counselors, is that, you didn't just go in and do a session. Like, this was something that that built. Right?
Mike Gawliuk:They explained what it was going to involve, what it was going to take, what it was going to look like, what that experience would involve, and really prepared, me for that experience to come. And and, of course, I did my homework in terms of, who the counselors were, their history, their experience, that kind of thing. Their approach, and and talking about not only the positive outcomes, but where, where there could be, negative outcomes, were were things that were helpful for me to make the decision to go forward with that type of treatment. I can say for me, it was explained to me that what it before and after, what it would look like. And and I can say from my experience, talked about it, like, you have there's a trauma that you have in your life, and, and you hold a certain level of emotion, attached to that.
Mike Gawliuk:Right? Whatever that trauma is. And and someone explained to me that, as you go through the process and as you, start to to process the trauma, what comes out at the other end is that you still see that experience, but the emotional intensity that you've attached to it or has been attached to it, all the way along, no longer exists. Mhmm. And for me, it was an experience that, had to do with, a loss in my, in my family.
Mike Gawliuk:And, when I was done, I was pretty mesmerized by the outcome, and I could say it was super effective because the scenario that would almost bring me to tears if I spent time thinking about it now after going through the process, could see it loud and clear, could still go to that space, but the the pain and and everything that was attached to it, had been resolved. And I kinda went, wow. Like, this is this is, quite amazing, and it was a a really helpful and beneficial experience for me. So, of course, I would recommend it.
Jessica Samuels:Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk:But I would recommend it under the conditions that, again, it's with a qualified, certified, trained, therapist and that, they've demonstrated that they've they've had that that training and they have those credentials.
Jessica Samuels:How long did it take you to get to that resolution? Be you know, is so when when you had that relief and that that transformational experience that you were talking about.
Mike Gawliuk:Yeah. I I'm trying to think back in terms of the number of sessions that I had to Yeah. To sort of understand the process and then the build and to do a session, and some people do more than, one session. I think I think for me, it was, probably four or five sessions is what that looked like, But it's going to be different for, different people based on the experience depending on what the trauma is, how complex it is, and and those sorts of things.
Jessica Samuels:Okay. Well and and I appreciate you telling that story because I I'm my hope is that it will resonate, you know, this whole conversation, but our personal experiences will resonate with folks who are tuning into this. Have you ever had a bad experience? Have you you're like, nope. This is not for me.
Mike Gawliuk:I'm I'm trying to I've I've certainly heard of people that have had lots of bad experiences. Yeah. I've had I wouldn't say, like, horrible experiences.
Jessica Samuels:Like, I don't wanna be like, oh, it was so bad.
Mike Gawliuk:But you can't you kinda you know when you know. Right? Like, if if if there if there isn't a connection there, like, if it's just if it's not a fit, it doesn't take long to figure that out. Right? Yeah.
Mike Gawliuk:And and I think one of the things with, with therapy and I know historical research that they've done around common factors in therapy, like, what are the common factors that actually, help to facilitate change, the the therapeutic alliance, the relationship that's built with the therapist is always, like, up there, in
Jessica Samuels:Which is so interesting to me. Like, it makes sense if you've done it, but you have to, like, like the person. You can't think they're a jerk.
Mike Gawliuk:Well, it's
Jessica Samuels:There may be moments there may be moments in your session where you are disagreeing with them and you think, but, I mean, overall, you have to like them.
Mike Gawliuk:Well, there has to be there has to be a relationship
Jessica Samuels:Yeah.
Mike Gawliuk:That's built. There has to be a sense of, of trust that gets, that gets built there, a certain sense of credibility and a belief in the person's skills and knowledge as as well. So have I ever had a bad experience? I wouldn't say I've had a bad experience. Have I had to make a choice where I chose to go see someone else?
Mike Gawliuk:Yeah. And that was just because it wasn't it wasn't a fit, and I knew it wasn't a fit. And there was was no point going back because it wasn't going to make a difference for me.
Jessica Samuels:Well and you run the risk of of rejecting what the person is saying to you just because you don't have that relationship with them as opposed to, really hearing them and and following along with their advice. I mean, I I've had that experience, and I remember just sitting there looking at them. And for no reason, I'd be it was fine. I was just like, yeah. I don't like what you're saying.
Jessica Samuels:And I I don't I didn't say that. Yeah. But I just knew that I was having an emotional response to the individual, and maybe if somebody else had said it, I might have had a different response. You know, some other considerations too that we have to talk about and as just as we get prepared to wrap up here is, their availability and your budget. So we definitely went across the gamut of the different types of psychiatry, psychology, and counseling and all the ones we've talked about.
Jessica Samuels:And we recognize that budget is going to play a big role in that. And it's no secret to anyone that, you know, the system is woefully underserved, and stretched to the limits. And and there are free options out there, but even even the the the the pay services are are are quite, you know, overbooked.
Mike Gawliuk:For sure. I I it goes back to one of our previous podcasts around the state of mental health in Canada and the reality that, we need a more significant investment in counseling so that the 2,500,000 people who are in need that aren't getting help in the country would have access to that.
Jessica Samuels:Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk:So so there's a reality. What I would say is, yes, there are free services that are available. Again, Foundry, it's a walk in counseling model, free of charge. We've got a virtual counseling program that, again, is free of charge. There's places like Third Space, which also, serve young adults, that are are free services and then other organizations within the community that are either a sliding scale, or or free services.
Mike Gawliuk:Mhmm. In terms of accessing, of course, there's the public system, which is, free. And so depending on your age, certainly, if you're a young person, you can start at Foundry. Child and youth mental health through MCFD provides services for young people up to 19, and then Interior Health provides services for those 19. Those services are free of charge.
Mike Gawliuk:If you are, through work, if you have a benefit program, you may have either an employee assistance program that you can access that would be covered through your benefits and or your benefit, may also include, like, paraprofessional support. So, that could include, psychological services, counseling, those those pieces. So if you're, if if you if you're working, and you have a benefit plan, I would say take a look into that too because, those sessions may be covered through your benefit plan. So there's many different ways to access help. Again, unfortunately, as we know, we need more of it.
Mike Gawliuk:Mhmm. And, and what I know is from my experience, it sounds like from your experience, when you get the right fit and and and you're able to engage, in counseling, it certainly can make a significant difference in your life. And, you know, I wanna wanna certainly speak to the value of it and encourage anybody that's considering it, that it can be well worth, your time. Right.
Jessica Samuels:Mike, thank you so much for this discussion.
Mike Gawliuk:Yeah. Thank you.
Jessica Samuels:We have covered a lot of information today. We, will have some of those links on the A Way Forward podcast page presented by Beam Credit Union on the c m a j kelona dot org website. We'll have some links to some of the types of counseling, of course, some of those resources that Mike just mentioned as well. And if you have any questions about this topic or any of the topics we cover, you can always email us at a way forward at c m h a colona dot org. In the meantime, please take good care.
Jessica Samuels:Beam Credit Union supports mental health initiatives across British Columbia because caring for each other builds stronger, more connected communities. United as one, Beam's founding credit unions now serve 190,000 members across BC.
