Episode 15: Workplace Mental Health pt. 2
Hello, I'm Jessica Samuels. Welcome to A Way Forward presented by Beam Credit Union. I'd like to acknowledge this podcast takes place on the ancestral, traditional and unceded lands of the Okanagan Silix people. Once again, today, I'm joined by CMHA Kelowna Director of People and Culture, Candace Giesbrecht. Now she's here for part two of our discussion about mental health in the workplace.
Jessica Samuels:If you want to listen to part one, it's episode 11. Today, Candace and I are going to dig into burnout and its connection to work. Candace, in the previous episode, we talked about how to measure and have some positive influence on mental health in the workplace, mentally healthy workplaces. It's a bit of a tongue twister, because there's lots involved in it. Yes, we talked about that.
Jessica Samuels:And it was really interesting, because you shared an experience about a couple of years ago when you came to CMHA Kelowna. The guarding mind survey indicated that staff were close to burnout. You shared that you picked that as the focus, and it took a couple of years to really address it, with the understanding that there might still be a little bit of work still to do. But you're feeling better about it. And more importantly, staff are feeling better about it.
Candance Giesbrecht:Yeah, I mean, we're seeing some indications of, of the work that we've been doing and, you know, indications like, you know, the measurements that we have access to through our benefits. So people accessing the supports that they've been provided. We noticed that our number of open vacancies is way down, like less than half. And so the amount of work and the pieces, the puzzle pieces that have come together in order to accomplish this tells us that not as many people are leaving, and it's easier for us to fill. And so, you know, we look at some of these indicators.
Candance Giesbrecht:I mean, you know what, I feel confident in saying that our staff are good now. And that burnout is no longer no longer, a concern, no way. It is an ongoing concern. And especially with the world hasn't gotten any easier or less stressful and the pressure's on folks. So it's an ongoing concern.
Candance Giesbrecht:But as an organization, we identified a number of things that we really felt were impacting the burnout of our staff. And we're seeing the payoff of the investments in those areas.
Jessica Samuels:It's so interesting when you talk about burnout, and you mentioned some of those indicators, that that may not be top of mind for employers would be a reflection of burnout. So I think a great place to start is the definition. Burnout is a word that perhaps it has been used quite broadly for a number of things of late. It actually has a very psychological, a very specific definition that is associated with workplaces and the psychology of workplaces. Yeah, workplaces and the psychology of workplaces.
Jessica Samuels:But I would expand that a little more
Candance Giesbrecht:to Work. Yeah. And so and so the the nuances here, I think, you know, it's not just about the workplace or, or just referring to paid jobs or paid work. So so often, there's burnout that comes with the work that's associated with caregiving. Or there's the work that's associated even with volunteering or with parenting.
Candance Giesbrecht:And so so it's more about work than the workplace is a nuance that I would, I would want
Jessica Samuels:to add, I appreciate that, Because and perhaps it was my not fully understanding or misinterpretation of it. As I prepared for this, I thought, well, how can like life is hard, which
Candance Giesbrecht:is what you
Jessica Samuels:said. Can't I be burned out? Yeah, burnt out from our feel burnt out from other things? Yeah. So So what is the definition?
Jessica Samuels:It's is it the feeling of overwhelm? Is it the feeling of can't do don't know what to do next?
Candance Giesbrecht:Yeah, so when we look at and there are a bunch of definitions that are readily available online. But I thought it might be kind of fun if I could take one fun when we're talking about burnout to take a look at a definition that was provided by the World Health Organization, where they look they really break it down into three different dimensions. But I like alliteration. And so I came up with three D's that I think capture the things from the World Health Organization. So the one is depleted.
Candance Giesbrecht:And so there's physical, emotional, psychological, maybe even spiritual depletion. When I burned out many, many years ago, I was aware that I was stressed and that I was tired and that I was not necessarily overwhelmed, but just had nothing in the tank. I really found out when I physically collapsed. And so the D here is depletion. And so it's that sense of like, you know, I'm trying harder isn't working.
Candance Giesbrecht:I got nothing to pull on. Nothing mentally or physically or emotionally or spiritually that I can pull on. The D is depletion. The D that I have here is distant or disconnected. And so it's that feeling of kind of, you know, floating in space a little bit like I'm going through the motions.
Candance Giesbrecht:I'm doing things, I don't feel connected to them. You know, on the flip, we would look for engagement or we would look for feeling engaged and connected to things. So that's the D. And then the one, I had to struggle a little bit with. But I put here downer.
Candance Giesbrecht:So the sign of someone who's burned out, or maybe if we're looking in the mirror and we're trying to figure out, am I burned out? It's that cynical downer kind of like, you know, you tell me one thing and I go, yeah, but blah, blah, blah. So it's that downer kind of piece. So depleted, disconnected or distant, and that downer kind of behavior, thoughts, words. Okay.
Jessica Samuels:All right. I love that. Is that helpful? No, it is. And I like the alliteration as well.
Jessica Samuels:It helps with remembering it. You mentioned that burnout can be associated with work in whatever that work looks like. In the context of this episode, and we're talking about, workplace mental health, mentally healthy workplaces, could then, I surmise that if I am at a mentally healthy workplace, there would be no burnout?
Candance Giesbrecht:No. Wouldn't that nice? Wouldn't that be nice? Yeah, no, I mean, when we look at any kind of unwellness, I mean, as a workplace, we want to try to identify what are the things that we can prevent. So what are the things that we can do that might head this off in the place, or identify it early so that we can catch it before we're at that point of a person losing their health, losing their, you know, employment if things go really bad and so on.
Candance Giesbrecht:But so we want to try and prevent we want to catch it early, we want to have the mechanisms in place and the education and the training so that we can spot it, We can call it out. We can, you know, hopefully have a safe and respectful conversation where we go. You are not yourself. Like, you okay? What do you need?
Candance Giesbrecht:How's it going? What's happening like and and the 13 different factors that we talked about in the last episode that are the 13 psychosocial factors, then those become some of our levers or some of the ways that we can look at if we needed to do list, if we're worried about someone who's who we're concerned that they're burning out, we can look at those pieces and say, Are you feeling supported? Have you been provided with clear leadership and expectations? Are you physically safe? Are you you know, what's happening with workload?
Candance Giesbrecht:What's happening with you know, and we can we can kind of use it as a way of looking at different levers. Then, and then when we know that there's a problem that as a workplace, we have ways of intervening and responding that are respectful, that are safe, that are health promoting, that are good. It's like this Venn diagram of, you know, what's good for the person and also what's good for the organization, whether it's, you know, for profit or not for profit. You know, we've got these goals, we're looking for that that crossover around, we care for you. And we care about this place.
Candance Giesbrecht:And right now what's happening for you is having an impact and so for you and this place, so we need to have ways to try and intervene and respond.
Jessica Samuels:And how do you know what those ways are? I mean, are you talking about foundational ways that are at the root of it? I would imagine that there's going to be ways that are going to be specific to each workplace. As an example, you talked about the steps that CMHA Kelowna took to help address and prevent or mitigate burnout for its staff?
Candance Giesbrecht:Yeah, I mean, there are different sectors, there are different organizations, there are different kinds of mechanisms that are appropriate. I mean, you know, often what we hear from organizations or businesses is we're out doing training is, is the, you know, there's a nervousness about about having these conversations that you know, what's okay to talk about or what is, you know, where, where are those lines? Also, I'm their boss, it's not appropriate for me to be their counselor. I don't, you know, to some extent, I don't want to get involved in their stuff. And so, and so figuring out and navigating some of those lines is hard.
Candance Giesbrecht:But we do have that have a responsibility as employers to inquire and to ask people how they're doing, and then to work with them in being part of the solution. That isn't just stepping into people's personal worlds. This is what makes business sense, is to have the conversations. You know, Brene Brown, who I think many of us are fans of, says clear is kind. And so the clearer we can be about what's working and what isn't, and what we're seeing or what we're worried about, or I'm seeing this and the thing I'm wondering is.
Candance Giesbrecht:Then the safer and more open that we can have those kinds of conversations and also even set some limits sometimes, the better off we can all be.
Jessica Samuels:In preparation for this, you sent me over some information from the Community Social Services Health Association of BC. Some interesting stats in there and, what it led me to wonder, two things. So are there going to be some sectors that are more prone to burnout? And specifically from what I saw from that kind of led me to this question, some types of work or businesses. And then I wonder if we can chat about based on the uncertainty and turmoil of the last five, six years in general, are there any observations of whether incidences or rates of burnout are on the rise?
Candance Giesbrecht:So two questions there. Yeah. So the question is a little bit of a tricky one because on the face of it, the sectors that are working directly with humans who are vulnerable or maybe sick or unwell. Some of the sectors like healthcare or social services. Those are sort of the obvious ones and definitely where this study came out of.
Candance Giesbrecht:One of the stats, I knew it was tough out there, but this was kind of shocking, said in BC, there was an increase of 52% of the number of days lost to work, an increase over the last four years. Those are the obvious ones, but I'd be hard pressed to say what sector hasn't been negatively impacted over the last number of years because we're all living in this world where things are hard and groceries are expensive and kids are having different kinds of struggles than we've seen. I think We could look at some of the numbers, but my inclination is to say we're all in this. We're all trying to figure out a world that's unlike anything that we've ever seen before. It's new territory in almost every way.
Candance Giesbrecht:It'll be interesting as we look ahead, just with changes to immigration policies or things like that, where some sectors are very, very dependent on newcomers to the country. We've seen what happens with later shortages in healthcare or maybe in some other areas, but this is going to have a big impact on us. So what's the fallout of that, As consider impacts to business supply chains, factories, like, know, farms, schools, healthcare. I can't think of a sector that I wouldn't expect we would see some very concerning trends within because where there are humans, these are human problems more than sector problems, I think.
Jessica Samuels:Right. And so some of those solutions would be human specific, but also sector specific as well, which you mentioned before. I want to go back and hopefully you don't mind me asking how were you able to overcome? I guess I should say, have you overcome your burnout?
Candance Giesbrecht:Yeah.
Jessica Samuels:Oh, okay. Yeah. But because of that complicated nature of it, how I guess you said you recognized it because you literally passed out fell on the floor collapse. Were you able to carry forward?
Candance Giesbrecht:Yeah, it was. So it was a very long time ago. It was on the it was sometime after I just returned to work after the birth of my son. I really, what I started learning about was the impact of a little bit of postpartum depression combined with, you know, there was a new boss at work and there were it was an intense time, it was sort of a perfect storm of things. But the biggest thing that I learned and that I continue to learn is how my mental health works.
Candance Giesbrecht:Having a little bit more compassion for myself in various areas. So what I mean by that, because I feel like that could sound a little fluffy or that could sound like it's definitely vague. But what I mean by that is that I learned that for better or worse, I'm not good at working just between nine and five on Monday to Friday. That's not how my brain works. So the hard part of that was that I showed up for all of the nine to fives, like for the forty hours or whatever.
Candance Giesbrecht:Plus, I just kept working at the times where my brain actually was engaged. And so the hard part was that I didn't know how to shut off. I felt like I needed to show up and be present and at times when I wasn't productive. But I still needed to get the work done. So then when it was working for me, I was doing it after hours.
Candance Giesbrecht:So one of the things I just stopped fighting was the fact that sometimes my brain works better at 6AM or at 9PM. And I don't know what it is about that, but I just stopped fighting it. And I started embracing it and working with my employers to figure out the ways so that I can have a little bit more flexibility. Other people are very good at being present and productive on command. I am not one
Jessica Samuels:of them. That flexibility piece you mentioned last time with the 13 factors, because of course, you were telling that story and you have this range and variety of when you're your best to work as an employee. The other part of that is having an employer who is willing to hear that and work with it. And that's where that piece of that mentally healthy workplace comes in. That's one
Candance Giesbrecht:of those factors. It absolutely is. But at the core of that is the relationship and the trust and rapport that has to exist between the employer's got to be willing to have that conversation. And the employee, to some extent, needs to have some skill and some confidence in being able to say, Can we work out a different way of me getting the work done? I had a fantastic mentor, Doctor.
Candance Giesbrecht:Laura Hambly. Totally recommend you check out her stuff. But she just said, We need not confuse presence with productivity. You know, I mean, ultimately what we want is, I mean, we all want the productivity. The productivity is going to help the bottom line.
Candance Giesbrecht:It's going to help the business. It's going to help us make a greater impact, you know, whatever the thing is that we're measuring or that we're trying to accomplish. But saying, and it must happen between these hours. For many jobs, for many roles, I mean, it is important, like if you work at a bank, and your job is to be the person who meets customers, and that's another matter. But for many things, let's get the work done and let's figure out what's to find that sweet spot between productivity that suits a person and what the organization needs.
Candance Giesbrecht:Right. So going back to that guarding mind survey and it being a tool for employers, one of
Jessica Samuels:the questions that I didn't ask you last time is how you talked about how you kind of get the green light, yellow light and the red light. What's interesting is to me is how do the questions work? Do employers, do they are they able to have some flexibility on the questions? Or is it a standard set of questions? No, again, because it would be sector specific?
Candance Giesbrecht:Yes, exactly. Yeah. So, so with this particular tool, the questions are not editable. So you know, set and there's a very good reason for that. These questions have been tested.
Candance Giesbrecht:They are evidence based. They have been pushed and pulled across a number of different sectors, different kinds of expertise has weighed into this. And so the words are very carefully chosen and the questions are testing quite specific domains related to these 13 factors. It is possible to get tailored engagement surveys that measure that would accomplish a very similar thing to the Guarding Minds at Work. What we love about Guarding Minds is that we know it's evidence based and that we know it's free.
Candance Giesbrecht:It's accessible to absolutely everyone. But there are a lot of professionals. But what will often happen with consultants related to these kinds of surveys is that while there may be a little bit more choice, at least if they're done by professionals, which, you know, that's what we're talking about here. They will still be choosing from a bank of questions that are evidence based. And if somebody is, you know, maybe testing out a consultant, that's actually a good thing to test.
Candance Giesbrecht:Like, you know, if they say, yeah, we can work on the questions and completely edit them together, actually might be a little bit of a flag for me.
Jessica Samuels:Okay. You brought up an interesting thing there. So there's the guarding minds. You mentioned a consultant. What are some other things a workplace can do to kind of take those steps to manage you know, and establish that respectful, you know, psychological safety in a workplace.
Jessica Samuels:Imagine CMHA Kelowna, through that two years of working through that, you didn't only do the guarding mind survey, other things happened.
Candance Giesbrecht:Yeah, there are other things. Yeah. So I mean, you know, the suggestion for, you know, organizations who are wanting to do this is like, ultimately, we want to find ways, and ideally multiple ways for people to tell us how they're doing and how it's going. And so there may be a combination of you might do focus group kinds of sessions, you know, opportunities where within a group setting and and you could have a neutral person or it could be run by senior staff or the HR department if you have one. So it could be in a group setting, it could be survey, and then there's questions around anonymous or not.
Candance Giesbrecht:But the hope is that we're finding ways to get that two way feedback and that we're creating those conditions and those opportunities where we can know not just at a point in time, which can be very valuable and important, but that we have opportunities and ways when people can tell us when they have an idea of what's going well, and also what they would like to see happen differently. And just when you think you've nailed it, you probably have some more work to do. And this is one of those things that's also time intensive, takes a lot of takes a lot of time and investment and circling back. I mean, we were just talking about it today that, that, you know, we, it's been a while since we circled back to staff and told everybody about the kinds of things that we've been working on from when we asked them how they're doing. So, so it takes time and intention.
Candance Giesbrecht:But, you know, going back again to something I said last time, my argument is you'll pay either way. So you either pay in investing in some of the proactive conversations, or you're going to pay on the other end when you start seeing high turnover or you start seeing some toxic behaviors or you start seeing some unhealthy, you know, conflict or things like that that are happening, lost productivity, lost days of work and so on. Employers are going to pay either way. You pay either way. Okay, thank you so much, Candace.
Jessica Samuels:Yeah, you're welcome. Well, hopefully somewhere in there, have some ideas about how to prevent burnout, whether it's in the workplace or at work. And if you're an individual who's an employer in a workplace and you want to find ways to foster a mentally healthy workplace, of course, we're going to have those resource links for you on the WayForward podcast page presented by Bean Credit Union. As always, if you have questions about this episode or any episode, you can email us at colonacmhacolona dot org. You can always email us at awayforwardcmhacolona dot org.
Jessica Samuels:In the meantime, please take good care. Beam Credit Union supports mental health initiatives across British Columbia because caring for each other builds stronger, more connected communities. United as one, BEAM's founding credit unions now serve 190,000 members across BC.
